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ADV 1B (Universal Beta) Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Disaster Area, Aug 2, 2017.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Global Moderator

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  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Global Moderator

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    A look at the new stuff, and comparisons to other mons, etc.

    Not relevant: [​IMG] (outclassed by Deo-A), [​IMG] (outclassed by Wobbuffet)

    Very similar to other stuff:
    [​IMG] - sort of like salamence. No intimidate, slightly slower [95 vs 100], doesn't outspeed deo-a at +1 if adamant unlike mence, higher attacking stats on both ends, and has access to Thunder Wave. So basically it's like mence but stronger and less defensive.
    [​IMG] - like a suicune, but much much stronger, auto rain, and has thunder and thunder wave and water spout. This thing is really strong and might well be banned before new frontiers even stars.

    New but fairly straightforward:
    [​IMG] - fast suicide lead spiker. Doesn't do much more than that I guess? Could be fun to play with.
    [​IMG] - cb and subpetaya are both cool sets i've seen. It hits strong, it doesn't switch into stuff. Definitely something to keep an eye on, but doesn't feel as immediately broken as most things.
    [​IMG] - bulky with spikes, taunt, ok speed, and knock off. Could genuinely be really powerful, especially if the pace of the meta slows.
    [​IMG] - really effective. also encore can be nasty as.

    New, different, and shape the meta in significant ways:
    [​IMG] - twave, swords dance, great physical attack and defense. Great wallbreaker, and provides sun support. If Kyogre goes, that sun support is without competition.

    Notable checks:
    Lati Twins - outspeed, have dragon claw / ice beam / solarbeam, have usable physical bulk if you invest in it.
    Lugia - outspeeds, has reflect, toxic, etc.
    Exeggutor / Celebi - both outspeed it, ko with grass stabs
    Skarm - loses to mag and doesn't like twave, can Toxic tho and takes hits well.
    Flygon - not seen it used yet. ProTox beats it fine...
    Weezing - ground immune with wisp and haze, but could be paraflinched.
    Groudon - physdef with toxic can check it probably.
    Breloom - resists edgequake and has spore.

    bulky waters like kyogre, suicune, and frailer ground immunes like gengar and rayquaza can also softly check it. Mewtwo / Mew can outspeed and Ice Beam. Sceptile - resists EQ, outspeeds groudon, pretty darn frail tho. Jumpluff is the same but immune to EQ and doesn't necessarily run a grass-type stab.

    Groudon kinda annihilates powerful rock-type attackers - ddtar, aero.

    [​IMG] - birdo. CB set is unwallable really although can definitely be checked. SubToxic Recover is solid. Sacred Fire is great.

    Checks:
    Bulky waters - Kyogre if legal, Suicune otherwise. Bulky ones with rest are the closest thing to a true counter to a CB set. Milotic is probably fine too, and it punishes sacred fire really really well.
    Rock types - good checks but weak to EQ and probably hate being burnt in most cases. Rayquaza is similar except it takes a ton from CB HP Flying etc. but it resists fire/grass and is immune to ground so could maybe check some sets in edge cases. Hates burns too.
    Lugia - smacked by shadow ball and if it's paralyzed could go down but probably is a solid check. Similar case with Mew most likely.
    Special Walls like Blissey / Lati twins beat specially-based sets.
    WishMence probably clocks it lol.

    Kind of a short list, but the bulky waters do do a great job. Furthermore, I think that whilst nothing else really beats it whatever moves it clicks, you can still beat CB sets throug(kh clever use of resistances, since it's using 4 different attacks and a lot of mons can happily take 2-3 of them, although sacred fire burns does cut down on the list quite a bit.

    [​IMG][​IMG] - latis. Great answers to Groudon / Kyogre. Powerful CM attakers. BoltBeam or Refresh+Dragon Claw are both good. I've seen Latios run 4 attacks before with solarbeam and stuff too. Pretty threatening and just stupidly bulky. With Soul Dew they do become significantly more manageable but are still pretty damn strong.

    Checks:
    Special Walls: Snorlax, Regice (does barely keep pace with CM Latis with psych u tho), Blissey (loses to refresh sets unless it runs snatch), Registeel (niche), Mewtwo (depending on the set), Jirachi
    Shedinja - usual caveats apply but hp fire is very rare fwiw.
    TTar - CB sets can smack them.
    CB Lugia
    Metagross / Steelix - take quite a bit of damage from its attacks but can check.
    Magneton - with toxic beats non refresh variants (so does toxic lanturn I guess...)
    Forretress - can check, hp bug 2hkos uninvested ones.

    [​IMG] - the great wall, also can run CB, but isn't the most threatening CBer... Reflect is cool. Vulnerable to status.
    [​IMG] - deep movepool but mostly outclassed by Mewtwo. Main tools it has that mewtwo doesn't are Swords Dance, Hypnosis, and Transform.

    Good question to ask is: what beats SD Mew? (Probably runs SD / Shadow Ball / Earthquake / Explosion, could run eq+rslide, softboiled>explosion, fighting type move > eq)

    Probably not the most important thing to deal with but SD Mew can probably break things if the meta pace slows a bit.

    [​IMG] - strong special attacker with self-destruct, cm, and recover.

    Checks:
    Special walls, TTar, Umbreon, only TTar/Steels are fine vs Self-Destruct, but Fire Blast will roast steel-types. Psychic-types aren't weak to any of its coverage.
     
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  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Global Moderator

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  4. Ortheore

    Ortheore Senior Moderator

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    So my first thoughts on the tier after my set with DA

    Although I disagree with running a suspect before new frontiers even started, holy hell is Kyogre ridiculous. In terms of raw power it's easily capable of overwhelming Blissey- even a max/max+ Blissey gets beaten down by boosted STAB attacks. It doesn't help that Kyogre can easily run sets that crush passive responses to it, like SubCM and Rest sets (even if the latter isn't that great). In terms of things that check it, you've got Lati@s, other Kyogre and... Ludicolo? There's basically nothing, and it's tough to pressure as well.

    Lati@s aren't nearly as bad, although it doesn't help that DA ran Blissey in every match iirc. They lack the raw power of Kyogre and so I'd be hesitant to call for any suspects at this stage.

    Being able to punish Blissey is a big deal, but I'm not sure there's any one size fits all solution in terms of wallbreaking, as there's a wide range of physical checks in the tier and a lot of wallbreakers have some issue that limits them (such as lack of STAB, dependence on CB or reliance on boosting/status).

    Although the viability rankings don't have too many hazard players ranked that high, they're still absolutely crucial. Forre is a pain in the ass as it spins easily on any team that lacks Gengar or Mag, but tends to be shut down fairly easily by those two.
     
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  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Global Moderator

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    Well there's also Shedinja, and you have Blissey (although it's not foolproof). Also versus rest sets, if you force it to rest, and then switch to Groudon - which you can do if it's not a resttalk variant - then you cut down the power of Kyogre's STAB by 4 times, letting something like Blissey take it on much more easily afterwards.

    Yeah Latis don't work well vs me because I literally spam Blissey.
     
  6. Enigami

    Enigami Member

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    Shedinja is quite unreliable as Spikes (and Sand from TTar) can completely screw it over, as has happened in most of my games with Disaster Area. Of course, he also brings TTar quite often...

    Here's a couple gimmicky things I've been playing with that I think could maybe find a spot on the lower end of the VR:
    [​IMG] - Dodrio hits crazy hard with banded Double-Edge, few things survive 2 hits from it without being a resist. It also has fewer speed issues than in OU due to Ubers tending to be below 100 Speed, and one of the few faster viable Pokemon (Deoxys-Attack) dies to Quick Attack, allowing Dodrio to take out any non-ESpeed Deo-A (edit: CB 252+ ESpeed from Deo-A is only a 68.8% OHKO, so even banded ESpeed Deo-A can still lose), or a banded Deo-A locked into something besides ESpeed. If you're feeling particularly trolly you can run Pursuit as 0 SpA Pursuit will OHKO a retreating Deo-A (which is perfect for a CB Deo-A locked into Shadow Ball) (edit: also Pursuit Drio is a silly way to screw over Shedinja too). The problem with Dodrio is invested Lati@s outspeeding, ESpeed Ray/Deo-A and its non-existant bulk, though its immunities to 2 common attacking types, Ghost and Ground, does give it a little defensive value. From my playing around with it, it seems like a usable-ish niche late game sweeper (and Deo-A check).
    [​IMG] - Set I run is LK / Ice STAB (Blizzard for some OHKOs such as Groudon, IB for reliability) / Mean Look / Perish Song. As with Dodrio, Jynx really enjoys being able to exploit the most common Pokemon of the tier being on the slower side of things, abusing Mean Look to SleepPerishTrap potential would-be answers like Kyogre and Blissey.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  7. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Global Moderator

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    I bring TTar literally every game. So yeah evaluating Sheddy's viability by playing against me is gonna give u an inaccurate sense of things.
     

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