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RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) Charizard [WIP]

Discussion in 'Individual Analyses' started by Enigami, Feb 5, 2016.

  1. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Charizard [​IMG]
    Type: Fire / Flying
    Stats: 78 | 84 | 78 | 85 | 100


    Introduction

    Charizard suffers from a horrible typing, along with facing heavy competition from Moltres who shares its typing while offering far more power to make up for its faults.

    Sets

    Standard

    Charizard
    -Earthquake
    -Hyper Beam
    -Fire Spin / Fire Blast
    -Swords Dance

    Set Details

    .

    Other Options

    [Body Slam].

    Checks and Counters

    Paralysis is severely crippling, as its weaknesses to Ice, Electric and Rock-type attacks .
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
  2. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    I'd probably go for SD/EQ/HBeam + Fire Blast or Fire Spin. Having Earthquake is huge for a Swords Dancer, since it allows you to OHKO Gengar at +2 instead of being reduced to using special attacks like most of the other SD users.

    I could see someone edgy enough to use Charizard using Body Slam to potentially annoy the inevitable Starmie switch-in, but you're still not beating it and Chansey becomes a bigger issue.

    That awful typing. OHKOed by Golem and weak to BoltBeam.
     
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  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I guess if ur running zard ur running it as a jynx anti-lead (like gengar/ninetales/sorta dodrio and tentacruel can do)?
     
  4. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    I suppose, and unlike Ninetales it isn't completely useless afterward. You'd run Fire Spin and try to get it into Hyper Beam range (5 hits). I suppose you could run Fire Blast as well, but honestly I'd be leery about giving up EQ for two less turns of necessary Fire Spin.
     
  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Also I think Body Slam as well as SD is an important niche over Moltres, insofar as its ability to para starmie possibly. However, I think Ninetales outclasses if not using SD..
     
  6. Lorvid

    Lorvid Member

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    I am really curious about teambuilding with Charizard for OU. I know he isn't very great, but I'd like to figure out where to fit Char in and what team to build around it.
     
  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    DA already pretty much summed up the best reason to use it over Moltres - it outspeeds Jynx (and isn't awful against Zam either, as it's not 2HKOed by Psychic). Ergo, lead with it. Not really sure what to support it with, though; it's cripplingly weak to Starmie and Rocks, which puts you in something of a tight spot as far as teammates go.
     
  8. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Zard vs. Rocks isn't that bad, EQ chips 1/4 HP and after a couple hits/a crit Goldon is put into +2 EQ range, and Fire Blast + Fire Spin sets also have BurnSpin as a way to get around them. Starmie, as with Moltres, is the real issue.

    If you're specifically looking to counter Jynx though, Zard shouldn't have to worry about Starmie since unless they drop an S rank for Goldon a Jynx/Starmie team would have a serious Zap problem. I feel like I'd want Jolteon as my 6th on a Zard lead. Burning or hitting Goldon with Earthquake makes it easier for Jolt to wear down Goldon into Double Kick range, Starmie is obviously no problem for it at all, and the potential para on 110+ mons helps Zard.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  9. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Yeah rocks aren't a big deal for fire-types in practice a lot of the time; they hate being burnt and due to their low special, Fire Blast can hurt a lot. It amuses me that Flareon's crit Fire Blast does over 50% to RHYDON.

    Speed tieing zapdos is also cool, as is slash... I would consider a Fire Blast / Fire Spin / Slash / Earthquake set and yeah it could be used as a lead. I'm not sure on Zard, it definitely has enough going for it that it must have some sort of a niche, it's just hard to pinpoint exactly what.
     
  10. TuffHunter

    TuffHunter Member

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    Thats probably the best setup as it functions as a anti Jynx lead or a surprise 6th pokemon. With para support it can potentially sweep a team using Firespin and then blast/eq/hyper as a finisher. But then again so can many other more generally useful pokemon.
     
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    the trouble with just about any set u use with zard is always gonna be starmie, and zard can't hit and run with bslam like flareon can, and can't just power past it with agility+fire spin like moltres can. What you really need to do is find a way to paralyze or sleep starmie and land some damage on it, and then find a set-up opportunity for it.
     
  12. TuffHunter

    TuffHunter Member

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    The ONLY true success I have had with it is as a lead. Earthquake against Gengar (and then switch if hit with Thunderbolt), FireSpin against Jynx. Otherwise switch out and keep it for a late game sweeper as Slash gets past reflect, Earthquake can finish off things weak to it and the occasional burn from Fire Blast can work wonders. But obviously if they hold onto anything faster with Thunderwave (especially Starmie) you are going to get stomped. But this is true of every wrapper in the game however... the main downside (as you pointed out) is the lack of Agility to get that speed advantage.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  13. juoean

    juoean Member

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    i think swords dance is unrealistic theres no time for it on a poke with no resists besides eq immunity and bad attack anyway, and charizard already wants to run 6+ different moves even without sd
    -you cant drop fire blast... ik people have concerns about burning mie etc but then theres no reason to run any fire type...... fire blast and its burn chance gives good matchups against normal physicals plus egg and is the deterrent to goldon switchins. fire is a horrible typing defensively the only reason to use any fire type ever in rby is for stab fire blast which is the strongest move in rby with a 30% secondary effect, by far.
    -fire spin is too good for momentum to drop (its not for sweeping tho bc accuracy, so not learning agility is rly not relevant even if there was room for it.....)
    -i think bslam is mandatory (on any fire type) bc you need a deterrent to unpara’ed starmie zam etc any unstatused switchins trying to get burned
    -slash is too good to give up both for reflect chansey which otherwise walls and is the strongest move against paralyzed starmie. if charizard is running slash starmie actually can only switch “safely” into a paraslam if at very high health

    i dont agree that eq is necessary for zard, at all. the biggest loss is vs gengar which is rare and im okay with fire blast against gengar anyway since burn leaves its explosion extremely weak without a crit so chansey / eggy is now completely fine against gar. fire blast is better than eq against goldon (unless rock is already para’ed). eq is nice against jolteon switchins i guess but thats rly specific bslam or slash are still good against jolt and way more spammable. zard like any fire type has enough guessing as it is.... bslam is for special switchins (slash for chansey) and fire blast is for physicals... thats adequate coverage, the “worst” scenario being gar.

    zard also gets counter which would be good against lax (and against tauros without blizzard) bc of the eq immunity but theres just no room for it...

    zards main problem really isnt getting past starmie or goldon / specific checks, 30% chance to cripple if not break through a check isnt bad at all lol. its problem is 1 as a (frail) fire type it has no real resistances / moves to switch in to (its best chance to switch in is to bait eq from a normal ie lax) and 2 its screwed by misprediction burning mie is horrible and paralyzing goldon isnt rly great either bc goldon then can switch into zard for free the rest of match

    im sorry for writing so much and usually i write in a way recognizing idk a lot and defer to others but if you havent played with or against fire types (or aero, aero has some similarities in how it plays offensively tho obv not at all defensively) its a rly different playstyle and a lot of the comments above dont apply in practice. like i cant imagine any zard player successfully using sd has anyone seen that???? fire types cant afford slow plays like that and zard doesnt have physical stab or a good attack stat to benefit either. fire types gain momentum by threatening status (either blastburn or paraslam) or firespin and pivot out, without the threat of status nothing will switch out bc nothing rly loses 1v1 since fire has no type advantages lol. even eggy might not be scared out given its high special without fire blasts burn chance (which ruins eggys explosion).
    thats the one advantage of fire types esp zard restlax cant j sit in front of it bc of the burn chance (and chansey cant either usually bc of slash) so you can actually get paraslams on their ideal targets like starmie *if u predict well. thats the reason to use zard not as a “swords dancer”.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
  14. juoean

    juoean Member

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    the only scenario where u might get a chance to use swords dance is after burning a physical~ bc of the stat modification glitch the attack drop gets reapplied (exponentially) with each swords dance. you cant against goldon tho since rock slide is 4x effective so even at 1/4 attack stab rock slide will do a lot and the other physicals have high crit rates (or slash) so basically that only can work against lax.
    and for a very rare situation youre giving up a lot in moveset... you prob need to show bslam first to get a chance to burn physicals otherwise youll only see mir switchins, dropping slash for sd isnt rly useful without a second physical attack (+2 bslam vs slash isnt rly much stronger) which means you have to drop fire spin also, which is horrible... esp for fire types momentum is way too important bc of having no resistances
     
  15. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Please edit instead of double-posting 12 minutes apart. Also, capitalisation, spelling and punctuation are nice*.

    Also, the reason everyone insists on Swords Dance and/or Earthquake is because Body Slam is not really a good enough reason to pick Charizard over Moltres (which has Agility and 80 more Special). Those two moves distinguish it from Moltres (and Flareon). It's like how you'll never see a Hypno running Psychic/TWave/Reflect/Rest, because Zam exists.

    *Yes, I know I made a post recently which omitted them. That was a deliberate insult.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
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  16. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Fwiw I probably would've stuck to a post just saying why Zard isn't viable, rather than planning a full analysis (either way, this analysis is clearly unfinished)

    For the sake of discussion, I think that SD does deserve a set since it's one of the few things Zard can do that's distinct from other Fire types. Regarding opportunities to set up, Zard can scare out Egg, Jynx, Lax and Tauros (burns and its FB is decently strong), while it doesn't even need to scare out Egg if Egg lacks Stun Spore.

    That said, I agree with Juoean that an alternative set with some of the moves they suggest would probably be better, though it's unclear what combinations are best imo. I do disagree that Body Slam is necessary, since it's just too unreliable and too specific imo (literally accomplishes nothing unless it lands that key paralysis), though its merits are obviously sufficient to be worth noting. Moreover, I disagree that Fire types need to threaten status- they're simply not good at spreading it, as paraslam is extremely limiting, due to unreliability and normal type immunity, while burns are even more unreliable and run the risk of backfiring. Instead I think their appeal lies in the raw power of FB and the ability to use Fire Spin, however I don't think that's sufficient justification for using any of them except Moltres.
     
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  17. juoean

    juoean Member

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    magic9m~

    i think the most important distinguishing move for charizard from other fire types is slash, not eq or sd. slash is the move that keeps chansey including reflect chansey from switching in freely. chansey was not rly discussed in this thread as a zard switch in so i didnt say any details about that but obviously slash twice does more than one +2 bslam or eq. slash also is how zard best threatens paraed mie which i did talk about. idk if you skipped that whole part or ? yes obv bslam without slash wouldnt threaten chansey at all and starmie would still check zard easily even switching into a paraslam. as i also said you could use sd with bslam and drop slash but idk what the point of that would be, you would lose slash’s utility against reflect and yes +2 bslam is a little stronger than slash but it makes prediction even harder do you think thats worth it? slash with bslam provides move compression and lets you still run both fblast and fspin which for the reasons i said i think are required for any fire type

    i put the posts separately since the second post was a “sidenote” and i thought it was better organized to keep it separately. if you think it should go in the main post somewhere (lmk where) i can edit

    i personally dont write / start sentences with capital letters, for “political” and gender expression reasons and im not going to change that. i know that i dont always use punctuation in exactly the same way as dictated by bourgeois white standard english, i do try to make sure my writing and sentence structure is as clear as possible tho and if its not you / anyone can always criticize that (probably better privately to not take up the thread but im ok with either / any way someone wants to give criticism).
     
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  18. juoean

    juoean Member

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    Ortheore agree with some of your corrections. i “forgot” about egg without stun spore. fire blast is going to struggle to scare anything out if you are considering zards “main” set to lack fire blast tho (as the original does fblast is slashed second).

    maybe there could be two separate sets, 1 the set thats listed (though i think fire blast should be first and idk if spin should even be slashed, its true youre prob only setting up once so revealing is less of an issue but 1 you need the threat of fblast to set up sd and 2 if you do burn lax you can use the free turn(s) to set up sd) and 2 with fire blast and spin as the two main moves and the other two moves to threaten starmie and chansey as best as possible (whether thats slash and bslam or if ppl have other ideas of two moves to put there)
    but if you dont run fblast on the sd set i reallyy question what advantage zard has over a sd’er like sandslash which defensively outclasses zard (other than the mostly irrelevant grass weakness) and offensively is sm stronger plus has stab eq, and zards higher speed doesnt rly outpace anything notable either (speed ties zapdos which +2 zard is still horrible against lol)

    btw idk if i agree that moltres is overall better, it has much better bulk and its blast is stronger but it rly struggles with any healthy special wall (except maybe zam assuming moltres has hbeam) even if paralyzed bc fspin is too weak and inaccurate, which means moltres rly has to stay hidden... zard outspeeding jynx used to matter lol but even if zard rly cant lead in this meta it doesnt have to stay hidden either bc when it does get in theres no easy/obvious switch in. i think moltres and zard (and maybe flareon) are the only fire types that are usable (ninetales is not usable lol esp not with reflect chansey everywhere) they are very different and hard to compare zard is more midgame moltres is endgame
     
  19. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Yeah I agree on the point that you should keep it down to one post, also good spelling/grammar is appreciated.

    If you want to spread paralysis with a Fire-type, Flareon is decent at it. Moltres is better at sweeping as a Fire-type. Swords Dance and Slash are niche moves, neither of which I have seen work terribly well. I guess I could see something like Fire Blast / Fire Spin / Slash / filler working, but I've not looked at the calcs on it, and Pinsir or Flareon are similarly comfortable putting pressure on Chansey or Lax, and none switch in particularly well. Both seem like narrow niches... I would like to see zard sets put in work in practice before they're added to the analysis I guess
     
  20. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Charizard critical hit Slash vs. Chansey: 239 - 282 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    Flareon Body Slam vs. Chansey: 201 - 237 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
    Flareon critical hit Body Slam vs. Chansey: 392 - 461 (55.8 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Charizard's Slash is slightly stronger than Flareon's Body Slam even after accounting for crits (260 vs. 245). Of course, there's the para chance (on stuff that isn't Normal, obviously) and Flareon's much stronger Hyper Beam and Fire Blast to consider.
     
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  21. juoean

    juoean Member

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    just to add/clarify at m9m (do u like being referred to that way? magic9mushroom isnt “that” long to write out fully if u prefer) that those calculations dont account for reflect. slash’s most important use for zard is for forcing out chansey including reflect chansey, zard can come into a paralyzed chansey with reflect up even at 70% ish health (not into twave ofc) and beat it / force it out if it fps once, and chansey cant even rly click twave bc it would still be outsped and koed or forced out at low health. not many pokes can do that to reflect chansey, tho ofc sandslash is even better with its twave immunity.
    zard struggles against starmie regardless of its set but even more so if its not running swords dance, slash zard isnt trying to beat starmie itself its trying to paraslam on the switch and if it gets paralysis then fire spin out (to prevent recover). slash is really for chansey and if its not reflect chansey theres much less risky and more effective ways to pressure it so using calculations/comparisons not accounting for reflect is kind of misleading.
     
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