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RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) Blizzard ban on Tauros?

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by Duke Groundrunner, Nov 8, 2019.

  1. Duke Groundrunner

    Duke Groundrunner Member

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    After spending over a year away from pokemon perfect I have skimmed many new discussions.
    When I came across the suggested bannings of various big 4s i.e. Chansey, Snorlax, and Tauros it got the rusty gears turning in my head.
    I believe it was peasounay who wrote the suggestion, since the Chansey and Snorlax ban didn't seem to go well, that maybe just maybe Tauros was the problem. I couldn't find that particular discussion again for some reason and don't remember the date stamp on it, but was wondering if the ban was tried out and how it went. Also, if it didn't go that well,what thoughts would be on banning blizzard for Tauros. Would it open up the tier at all? The first and most obvious thing to me that comes to mind is golem and rhydon being turned loose in a major way. Tauros would be forced to EQ those guys making it a 3 turn effort to off either of them. If memory serves me right, maybe even 4 turns to KO golem depending on damage rolls. Hoping to start a fun/ fruitful discussion. Cheers

    Edit: after writing this I did find that peasounay did post this subject under the "tiers" forum whilst I was scanning through chat and analysis. Turns out it was from 2017 . But still I am curious to hear how the ban went or if it ever was tried.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
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  2. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Complex bans are generally strongly frowned upon. That way lies madness.

    Also, the chance to fail to 3HKO Golem with Tauros EQ is 0.04%. You're probably thinking of the 25.4% chance to fail to 3HKO Rhydon that way.
     
  3. Duke Groundrunner

    Duke Groundrunner Member

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    Yea I knew it was one or the other.
    Also it seemed they were worried banning Tauros would cause a chain ban. But I never saw any discussions on how the Tauros ban went. I get you on complex bans but sometimes like for swift swim rain dance in later generations it just had to be done.
    Maybe giving Tauros a better check in goldon would make things interesting.
    Switching into bull body slams.would be great without fearing a 2hko blizzard. Or ohko crits next turn.
     
  4. samy0w

    samy0w Member

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    Ye I really doubt that a Blizz ban on Tauros will happen, since its a complex ban and blablabla. Banning Tauros completely? Kangash will probably replace it, its slower yes but the crit rate is still a huge threat
     
  5. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Rhydon's bulkier on both sides than Golem, and hits harder physically. Golem's advantages are speed and Explosion.
    Eh, Tauros is one of the cases where it's not actually a huge distortion of the meta. Banning Chansey might have that effect, but I'm not seeing it from Tauros.
    Swift Swim/Drizzle ban is not in place on PP and likely never will be. It got instituted on Smogon because Smogon's ban process is on crack.
    Kangaskhan has about 12% less special bulk than Tauros. This is a huge deal because Tauros only barely avoids 2HKO from a rather long list of strong special attacks (Exeggutor's and Alakazam's Psychic, Zapdos' Thunderbolt, Victreebel's Razor Leaf, Kingler's Crabhammer, Cloyster's, Jynx's, and Lapras' Blizzard); Kanga is usually or always 2HKOed by all of those.

    Kangaskhan also has a much weaker Blizzard. It still covers GolDon (as it learns Surf), but it's much easier to switch into a predicted Kanga Surf than it is a predicted Tauros Blizzard.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  6. samy0w

    samy0w Member

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    I dont really get your point. Tauros doesnt want to take most of these mons on anyway unless you are relying on crits or parahax or smth like that. Best thing I can think of is that u want to get rid of Zapdos because u have a water in your 6th slot
     
  7. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    I like this.

    I suggest trying bans on Tauros' Blizzard and Snorlax's Reflect (Harden, or whatever pops up) combined. Still don't know what to do with Chansey's Reflect (Defense Curl and so on).

    Reflect Snorlax is still the issue, so banning Reflect for Snorlax is the first step, and having Rock-Types that can be effective even if crippled after switching into Snorlax would fix the issue we've faced when we were testing Reflect bans for Snorlax: Physlax was a beast and we were still switching Normal-Types into Normal-Types.
     
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  8. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    The reason Tauros is so scary is because it has few bad matchups and no truly solid counters. All of those are much worse matchups and in a couple of cases actual counters for Kanga.

    Tauros' bulk is a big deal.
     
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  9. samy0w

    samy0w Member

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    No Bull and no Kangashkan wants to take on a fresh unparalyzed Lapras and/or Cloyster

    I wouldnt even say anything about a Reflect (+def curl and so on) ban. Well I actually think it would be healthy to ban those moves. But if you are following Smogons Metagame and Guidelines you cant just ask for a complex ban like a Blizzard ban on Tauros.
     
  10. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    This reads more like Snorlax should simply be banned, rather than any moveset tinkering. You can get rid of ReflectLax and Snorlax will still cause issues because it's fundamentally overpowered.

    For the record, the biggest reason I've opposed action on Reflect Normals is because I think everything that's been proposed is either a terrible precedent (complex bans), or because they targeted the wrong things (banning Reflect). In the latter case, banning Reflect affects a massive array of pokemon that are in no way toxic and even once you ban Reflect, Snorlax and Chansey would still dominate the meta, still be on practically every team and still be overpowered. IF you decide something needs to be done, I think the correct solution is banning Chansey or Snorlax. It's not something I'd support, but I'm nowhere near as strongly opposed to it as I am everything else that's been proposed.
     
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  11. samy0w

    samy0w Member

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    I think I have heard this a few times as well. To me it feels like both have some amount of "decent" counterplay.. but maybe I am just lying to myself. Tauros on the other hand is as wild as it gets. You can try to fight a 5% Tauros with your full hp Tauros and end up losing your next mon to rng because the enemy Tauros felt like winning the speedtie and hyperbeamcritting yours
     
  12. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    I just won't outrage because I am kinda retired and I am too old for that, but every single time I see that "let's ban Snorlax thing" I feel the urge.
    We've been through that years ago I guess? It failed and we're going back to it again, generating an infinite loop.
    Some hair of mine turned white in the meantime, that's trolling at its finest wanted or not.

    Other than that, I feel like a "we love Wrap and Reflect and no thing in RBY OU is gonna change" announcement would be so much appreciated at this point.
    It would be completely reasonable given that no attempt produced proven considerable results and the tier is still okaish for those who play it on the ladder once a month or for those who have less then, let's say, 5 years of tournament experience with it...
     
  13. samy0w

    samy0w Member

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    No. We had surveys a few months ago and both Wrap and Reflect just didnt break the 50% mark. Unless you want to pull a ABR (the guy who calls the shots on Smogon) and decide things on your own. But even then you need to have some clout/influence or whatever you call it in the forum that shapes the meta
     
  14. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    I don't get this ABR thing, nor I care about what happened with surveys or decisions.
    All I'm talking about is this: if complex bans are not going to happen and simple bans have been explored already (and failed), it's better to be honest and tell it the way it is instead of acting like we're here for some kind of debate.

    I mean that it would be appropriate to make clear that the core of the tier is not going to change and players will be left with nothing but surveys every couple years or so to decide about things that are hardly relevant, just like banning AgiliNite (even something so easy like banning Wrap entirely would take a miracle).
     
  15. samy0w

    samy0w Member

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    Its not my fault that half of the RBY council is retired and the other half is straight up trolling LOL
     
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  16. Duke Groundrunner

    Duke Groundrunner Member

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    Tauros is still the best physical sweeper in the game with just 3 moveslots. I can't think of anything that could take his place. Blizzard just nudges it into the absurd category. I believe it even shrinks the 1U roster by a few mons. Even with no blizzard there is still fireblast that could cripple the rocks amazing attack stat on a predicted switch perhaps. What can switch into Tauros and reliably beat it? Assuming there is already a slept mon on your team cuz of course eggs can with sleep powder. Cloyster is probably the only one that you can take to the bank.
    Snorlax is 2nd place I'd say but the critslam is too common.
    Slowbro is 3rd In my book with it's it's ability to twave. Lapras can but has a high.risk to miss a blizzard. Then starmie is about 50/50. Starmie v taur standoffs are always a nail biter. I'd just like to see goldon be able to join the ranks of something that can check the bull harder. Also would this open up more of a niche for sandslash?
     
  17. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Not unless you count an Explosion draw as "beating it". Tauros usually 4HKOs Cloyster and Cloyster only usually 3HKOs Tauros, so Tauros usually wins that. Cloy usually beats Tauros straight-up, but it's not a counter.
     
  18. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    The thing is there's absolutely no reason to differentiate Blizzard from anything else Tauros can do. Why not ban Body Slam Tauros? If Tauros had to use Double-Edge or whatever that would be no less of a blow to it. You could make similar arguments for any of Tauros' standard moves.

    I think even a Reflect Normal ban is less bad, since it at least identifies a discrete combination as problematic- it is predicated on Reflect Lax/Chans being toxic and non-Reflect Lax/Chans being both distinct and non-toxic. A Blizzard Tauros ban is looking at something where the sum of its parts is maybe a little too much and arbitrarily choosing one of those parts to remove. You could literally RNG which of those parts to target and it would serve the same purpose. Like, what purpose does Blizzard serve on a Tauros? It secures 2HKOs against one or two relevant pokemon (depends on how you feel about Gol), and that's about it. Are we really going to say that's broken?
     
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  19. samy0w

    samy0w Member

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    ?????
    Blizzard is not the main issue with Tauros. Blizzard is the tool that makes Tauros so dangerous, because guess what you named it already it takes out the rocks in 2 hits. If you remove Body Slam from Tauros' moves then it has to rely on Double-Edge yup, but if that turns out to be unviable theres not much reason anymore to use Tauros no?

    The original post was about giving the meta a suitable answer for the Bull (yeah I know it wont happen that way Im just trying to explain). You dont really want to sacrifice Rhydon or Golem just to get in a bit of damage on a Tauros currently
     
  20. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    If Tauros lost Blizzard, it'd most likely just fill in that slot with Thunderbolt or Thunder. Say bye bye to Cloyster and Slowbro being any sort of answer to it. Banning Blizzard would change things up slightly by making Cloyster/Bro worse and Eggy/Grounds slightly better, but it would hardly stop Tauros from being Tauros. If you really wanted to neuter Tauros, Earthquake would do so. Gengar would counter it, Counter users wouldn't need to worry about Earthquake scouting, niche mons like Jolteon wouldn't be quite as exposed to Tauros, etc.

    But the problem with any arbitrary complex bans, is that now you open all sorts of other arguments. If we're banning Reflect on Snorlax to keep it in the tier instead of banning Snorlax, what about allowing Mew without Swords Dance or Softboiled? Maybe Mewtwo without Amnesia or Recover would be fair?

    Ultimately, I can't ever be in support of complex bans. Either Reflect is broken, Chansey and/or Snorlax is broken. Not that it'd matter, Pokemon Perfect isn't maintaining independent tiering for old gens and there is 0 chance Smogon would accept it.
     
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  21. samy0w

    samy0w Member

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    See. I told you its not going to happen, you either ban Reflect or one of the Pokemons.
     
  22. Honig

    Honig Member

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    They changed Golem to UU, I dont get it. After so many years :D
    Golem is such a good Mon, I dont get it :D
     
  23. Longfellow

    Longfellow Member

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    I'm curious to what extent Ice Beam Tauros could do the same things as Blizzard Tauros. Based on some quick calcs, Tauros loses the Blizzard 2HKO on rocks (and OHKO on crit), but is still likely to KO with Bslam and two Ice Beams, so for instance Rhydon is still scared to switch in even on a correct prediction.
     
  24. samy0w

    samy0w Member

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    Golem was dropped to UU because it is outclassed by Rhydon and you dont have many reasons to replace it with Golem. If you ask me you can still have a pretty decent team with Golem as 6th though

    Yup, its still not something that Rhydon/Golem would like. You basically have 3 chances to crit (1x BSlam, 2x Ice Beam)
     
  25. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    In a case where you know your opponent's team ahead of time, you usually do not want Golem as you'll either bring Rhydon or neither. In cases where you do not, Golem is worthwhile. Outside of the team matchups where you specifically want a Rock (i.e. opponent is not running mono-Normal Lax, physical-only SDLax, Birds, Gar, or Jolt), Golem has greater utility than Rhydon because it learns Explosion and can therefore be traded off against something more relevant.
     

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