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RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) a few thoughts on the meta at the highest level

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by EvanRBY, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. EvanRBY

    EvanRBY Member

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    First, I want to argue that the ideal set for Lax is "NormLax"
    reflect/body slam/rest/self-destruct

    My philosophy on this is that almost no one at the top of the meta uses non-lead gengar. Also, if the opponent has a rock, you can typically cripple/kill the rock type with body slams before they get a lucky crit. Golem/Rhydon crit rate is ~8%. Also, I'd argue golem/rhydon are less common.

    -------------------------------------------

    Second, given how much rock types have fallen out of favor, I've noticed it's very rare for a person to bring a rock type in back to back games, especially if they lost the first game while using a rock type. Because of this, I think double electric team is incredibly underutilized. My observation is that Double electric plus NormLax is easily the strongest team build in Gen1 assuming the opponent has no rock or gengar, which I'd estimate is >80% of the time (assuming the opponent just lost the previous match using a rock type on their team)


    -------------------------------------------

    Third, RaishChansey has become the only chansey set for many of the meta's top players. I'd argue knowing your opponent's chansey preferences allows you to use Ortheore's Slowbro team concept, which I think gives you the slight advantage over most reflect chansey teams (however, the slowbro team relies heavily on predicts at times, and the team really enjoys knowing how your opponent plays against a lead geng. Here's Ortheore's team with the concept:

    "Elysian- A Cry from the Helpless
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Gengar (M) @ (No Item)
    - Hypnosis
    - Explosion
    - Thunderbolt
    - Night Shade

    Chansey (F) @ (No Item)
    - Soft-Boiled
    - Thunder Wave
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Beam

    Exeggutor (M) @ (No Item)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Stun Spore
    - Psychic
    - Explosion

    Rhydon (M) @ (No Item)
    - Earthquake
    - Body Slam
    - Rock Slide
    - Substitute

    Slowbro (M) @ (No Item)
    - Amnesia
    - Thunder Wave
    - Psychic
    - Rest

    Tauros (M) @ (No Item)
    - Body Slam
    - Blizzard
    - Earthquake
    - Hyper Beam

    Same paranoia about leads. I wanted a team with Gengar as a lead, and I had this team handy which I decided was good so here we are. It’s ironic given how much I talk shit about Rhydon, but this may actually be my best team out of the ones that I’m testing. The premise is for Egg, Chansey and Bro to spread heavy paralysis in order to support Rhydon. It also helps that Bro is easily the most threatening Water type in the game, which means it’s good at baiting Electric type attacks for Rhydon. I don’t have such a clearly defined strategy for this team otherwise, but it’s got very strong emergent play imo, so that’s cool."

    -------------------------------------------

    Last, if you know your opponent favors "Bliz, Psychic Starmie (friendlymie)" as a lead, the following team is somewhat designed to have the largest advantage for the least downside:

    Jynx
    -lovely kiss
    -blizzard
    -psychic
    -rest

    Chansey
    -sing
    -thunderbolt
    -ice beam
    -soft boiled

    Cloyster
    -hyperbeam
    -blizzard
    -clamp
    -explosion

    Starmie
    -thunderbolt
    -thunderwave
    -blizzard
    -recover

    Tauros
    -body slam
    -earth quake
    -blizzard
    -hyperbeam

    Golem
    -body slam
    -earthquake
    -rock slide
    -explosion

    How this team works:
    T1, Jynx switches to chansey. Starmie almost always Twaves.

    Now*** T2 depends on scouting your opponent. If you know your opponent instantly switches to Lax, you use Sing. If you know your opponent stays in as Starmie hoping to take a Twave, you're supposed to thunderbolt starmie until it switches out. Then you surprise sing whatever poke switches in, putting your opponent at a huge disadvantage moving forward.

    The team then functions as 3 switch revolving stall with the goal of freezing. Chansey/Jynx/Starmie wall special attacks, while firing off ice beams/blizzards.

    Cloyster/golem are used to wall physical attacks
    When your opponent switches in Lax and tries to slam your chansey, you're supposed to switch to cloyster to take the slam. In the beginning, you should switch cloyster because it allows you to fire off a blizzard against the opponent's snorlax (or whatever poke opponent switches to). This also allows you to hide golem for as long as possible. When your cloyster finally becomes paralyzed, DO NOT immediately explode; you need to get as much mileage out of it as possible before exploding, because it should be used as your main wall to absorb physical attacks.

    KEEP your chansey alive as it is paramount to the 3 way switch ice attacks and can provide late game sleep/force out the opponent's chansey.

    Starmie can act as late game para spreader if Freeze is no longer a viable goal

    This team holds it's own and is actually surprisingly well balanced and has very few obvious counters. Credit to Cholaski for discovering it (I believe). This also feasts on the fact that Eggs is on pretty much every team.

    -------------------------------------------

    These were my major controversial thoughts on the meta. Currently, it's pretty toxic with the vast majority of meta players using Zam/starmie leads followed by reflect chansey, lax/eggs/tauros + last. My goal was to find counter concepts that capitalize on this trend, and I believe it's been successful assuming you're somewhat familiar with your opponent (which all of you are). Let me know your thoughts on this. I could be mistaken, I've been playing for a far shorter time period than all of you. Cheers!
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
    dsm77773, roudolf13 and Ortheore like this.
  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Underrated set, I never liked softboiled anyway

    /s
     
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  3. EvanRBY

    EvanRBY Member

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    Haha my fault, no twave on the Chans***
    It's sing/tbolt/ice beam/soft boiled

    Thanks for catching that :D
     
  4. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    As far as various MonoLax variants go, I actually agree with most of what you said- Reflect is enough to shut down Rocks, while Gengar isn't that big of an issue due to it blowing itself up a lot of the time. However I'm very hesitant to actually run one because you get badly exposed by Counter Chansey. On any other pokemon I think Counter is a manageable threat- you can scout for it and you naturally pack alternative checks to stuff like Lax and Jynx anyway, but beating up Chansey is one of Lax's primary goals and something it's supposed to do better than anything else, meaning you then have to run additional support to compensate for this, which is annoying. It all means it's something you build a team around rather than slapping it on a team to cover whatever role you need it to.

    Also cool to see stuff I shared contributing to new ideas. I didn't even expect that tbh, especially since most (not all) teams in that dump were fairly standard and not all that new. In any case, I totally agree that Bro is great with Reflect Chansey around. The counter-argument I guess is that SToss still forces Bro into a Rest-loop, which is true I guess, but I don't think it's hard to create scenarios where you deviate from that and even if you don't you at least force the opponent to do more than leave Chansey in behind a Reflect, otherwise they'll lose to hax. And regardless you stop Reflect/IB, which is less common but still notable imo
     
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  5. EvanRBY

    EvanRBY Member

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    With NormLax I'm coming in on a para'd chans. Most standard reflect laxes will body slam/eq the instant they come in on a para'd chans, and that seems to be when chansey usually reveals counter. By using reflect first, I've generally been able to scout. Once reflect is up you can body slam expecting them to not counter twice, or if you don't wanna risk it you can boom. Also counter chansey then relies heavily on prediction and is a risky play for your opponent too. Ideally, you don't run NormLax in every set, in order to keep your opponent honest. Good players usually see a trend and will bring counter in the next game. This is also useful in the sense that you can expect your opponent's next team to run counter, in which case they must sacrifice a key move on chansey. Your next team build can be used to capitalize on this by bringing a regular lax set and starmie, because the chansey has likely lost tbolt
     
  6. Ch01W0n5h1n

    Ch01W0n5h1n Member

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    Sorry that this is the first thing I notice but: Are those Pictures from Pokemon Pinball? They look nice ^^

    About the Teams you posted: I am generally no Big Fan of Gar, so I can´t reliable tell but you seem to have very small buffers to handle Zam and Mie, and other things such as Lax with Body Slam/Hyperbeam. It´s not that you cant handle them at all, but like if one part of your Team Crumbles, it could very soon fall apart.

    The Jynx Team you posted seems to relly much on landing the Freeze, but what are you going to do if you fail to do so? You are then at disadvantage, and you Lack the tools to make up for it (Lack of Eggy and Snorlax, Lack of Aggresive Mons other than Tauros to eventually pressure for Crits, and a Lack of Status via Paralysis to let Golem profit from it).
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  7. EvanRBY

    EvanRBY Member

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    For ortheore's team, you'd have to ask him about lead gar, I've topped the ladder with his team, but I always wondered if lead jynx would be superior in the tours because lead zam/starmie is like 80% of matches. My theory on lead gar with the team is that you avoid para and make sure it ends up taking sleep. As a sleeping Ghost your opponent is less likely to boom instantly on slowbro allowing you to twave or psychic. In addition, this team relies heavily on the last 5 Pokémon not being asleep. If you lead jynx, you're more likely to have it para'd which results in an essential poke for the rest of your team taking sleep. That's my theory.

    For the ice team, you don't need to rely on freeze. It weirdly wrecks opponents. Watch cholaski and 90 plus GXE play to get a sense of its potential. I used it for the first time against Troller in the semis and it handled his team pretty well. Because I showed him early jynx followed by not seeing eggs in back, he allowed his sleeping poke to get ko'ed trying to wake up. I then proceeded to unleash sing chansey which is devasting. A major point of this team is your opponent won't know how it functions if they've never seen it before, giving you the element of surprise.

    [Gen 1] 1U replay: EvanRBY vs. Heroic Troller - Pokémon Showdown

    Also remember it was my first attempt using the concept ever and it really put a veteran player on the ropes. In retrospect, I don't think I was outplayed, the hax was actually in his favor with how often the jynx got fps'ed in the beginning, especially when the lax came in on it for free. In the final stretch, he played out of his mind on the predicts and Hail Mary freeze, although the T1 wake ups helped a lot
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  8. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    For my BroDon team, the reason I chose Gengar was actually because I was concerned about a potential Wrap weakness, with Bel in particular being a big threat for the team. If I were to pick another lead I would probably go with Zam rather than Jynx, as I feel the team benefits more from Zam's para support
     
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  9. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Thunder Wave followed by Softboiled is a decent play against Lax without Hyper Beam. Also, Countering twice is perfectly safe against a Lax which doesn't have non-Normal attacks; the worst that could happen is that you switch out and Counter fails. I'd say a good player would easily force you to boom/switch/die.
     
  10. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    I think I've been the guy who started spamming that kind of Snorlax soon after Body Slam tragedy in 2015; most people overlook the way it's awkward to use against Counter Chansey. Rhydon is tricky (due to Substitute) after Exeggutor is gone, while Golem is doable. That being said, it's really good and versatile against common threats (Zapdos and Slowbro come to mind).
    Anyway, at some point I realize that Hyper Beam Snorlax is very dangerous with some setup, and it can't be walled as easily.

    The Slowbro+Rhydon team has issues against RNG: it's hard to deal with Lapras and Starmie (and BeamBolt Chansey as well), and Snorlax is obviously more versatile than Slowbro/Rhydon. Easiest way to use Rhydon is to pair it with TankLax. I approve it as a counterteam to Reflect Chansey.

    Cloyster+Starmie+Golem is something I tried at some point (think I had Rest>HB Cloyster at times): I felt like it was ok, but it's just passive most of the time, and I don't like that. Psychic and bad luck could eventually make something bad happen.

    As a conclusion: I didn't play RBY OU lately, nor I felt the need to differ from standard. And I think it was better in the paraslam days.
     
    Raish and Disaster Area like this.
  11. P5726

    P5726 Member

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    GGFan this is the post where I found the team.
     

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