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RBY 2P and 2U

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by marcoasd, Mar 30, 2018.

  1. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    I saw mild interest in this, but the thing that really pushes me into making a step forward is giving RoA a chance to get into this stuff - I feel like getting players from there involved is needed, and I’ll just drop it to those guys who can use these tiers on Showdown’s Ruins of Alph.

    Criterias are simple: top to bottom process based on power level, so it can be more durable + feedback (which means that pokemon on the low end of a tier can be tested in the lower tier, instead of using the banhammer), trying to give every pokemon a decent usage, have good tiers (using complex bans if they’re needed).

    The OU discussion happens to start with the B ranked pokemon in our viability rankings: there are arguments about each of those pokemon being downgraded to C, but the relevant thing is the low usage they have seen for a while.

    Case by case:
    [​IMG] OU
    currently OU, B rank
    In spite of its frailness Jynx has always been defining the lead role, especially in terms of speed. It’s part of the OU metagame and one of the very few cases where you can hope for it to get better trends while honestly believing in what you’re saying.
    STAB Blizzard and Psychic are no joke once you take the Recover trio and Slowbro out of the equation.

    [​IMG] OU
    currently OU, C rank
    Many argue it should rise, and I agree. Cloyster is a good addition for a standard RBY OU team, as long as you don’t depend on ReflectLax.

    [​IMG] 2P
    currently OU, B rank
    Gengar isn’t even considered the best answer for Jynx lead anymore; it can make some sporadic appearances as a non-lead, but that’s pretty much it.
    It’s still a STABless pokemon with 2 glaring weaknesses, and if we’re looking to ban something (mostly, Tentacruel), we’d better try Gengar in that tier.

    [​IMG] 2P
    currently OU, B rank
    Jolteon was the immediate answer to Zapdos when nobody really wanted to use GolDon, but that thing had to come to an end. Its speed made it an option as a lead but it lost appeal as players learned to handle it, the bottom line is that Jolteon can’t take paralysis and you’d better just use Jynx at that point, so you can get the first sleep off at least.

    [​IMG] 2P
    currently 2P, C rank
    RNG-based pokemon, I’ve always been scared as hell to see it so close to being claimed legal in 2U, some no need to be argued nonsense.
    Its case for OU is debatable at best, and it’s OK to allow it in a tier with bulky and faster pokemon that can handle it (2P).
    A wrapless version of Dragonite should be fair in 2U in case it doesn’t get a satisfying usage in 2P.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] 2P
    Each one of these doesn’t have big chances in OU as they are all almost outclassed (at least, there are better pick for their roles, and they are owned by Starmie). They’re all detrimental for the 2U tier: Moltres and Articuno were claimed as such immediately, but they got legal gain after Tentacruel proved to be even worse.

    [​IMG] 2U/2P
    currently OU, B rank
    A couple years ago, BeamBolt Chansey was considered to be the best moveset by many, and Restlax wasn’t considered nearly as necessary. After tables turned, Golem looks like a lesser option than Rhydon and it can be moved down for the same reasons Rhydon was in the past.
    Explosion being used outside of OU is a concern though, and it puts a question mark on its legality in 2U.

    [​IMG] 2U
    currently 2P, C rank
    Victreebel’s way behind Exeggutor in terms of power level, and it only has a chance in OU due to its (not even outstanding) speed.
    It needs paralysis support against faster pokemon and it can’t funcion after it’s paralysed, which makes it marginal even in a tier with non-OU pokemon like Moltres, Tentacruel, Articuno, Dragonite and Hypno.

    [​IMG] 2U
    currently 2P, D rank in OU, B rank in 2P
    Persian’s only chances to see usage in OU are due to its speed (and maybe its typing). Nothing exciting in terms of stats or movepool



    Options for 2P:

    - Current 2U: Alakazam, Chansey, Cloyster, Exeggutor, Gengar, Golem, Jolteon, Jynx, Lapras, Mew, Mewtwo, Rhydon, Slowbro, Snorlax, Starmie, Tauros, Zapdos are banned.

    - New order: Alakazam, Chansey, Cloyster, Exeggutor, Jynx, Lapras, Mew, Mewtwo, Rhydon, Slowbro, Snorlax, Starmie, Tauros, Zapdos are banned.
    Most notably: Golem, Gengar and Jolteon are going to be tested.

    Proposal for 2U:

    Alakazam, Articuno, Chansey, Cloyster, Exeggutor, Gengar, Jolteon, Jynx, Lapras, Mew, Mewtwo, Moltres, Rhydon, Slowbro, Snorlax, Starmie, Tauros, Tentacruel, Zapdos are banned.
    Either Dragonite is banned or Wrap is banned for Dragonite.
    Golem will be tested.
    Most notably: Articuno, Moltres and Tentacruel are banned; Golem and Dragonite are uncertain.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
    tjdaas and Sceptross like this.
  2. Sceptross

    Sceptross Leader

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    I'll hi-jack this post to do something similar to what marcoasd just did. I've been having some talks about viability rankings with some (good) players and they seemed to agree with most of my opinions, which prompted me to say that "once I had time I'll post my opinion on the non-big 9 ". Well I have some time today and this thread aims at doing something similar to what I wanted to I'll put my opinion here.

    My RBY 1U Viability Rankings

    S: Snorlax, Tauros, Chansey
    S-: Exeggutor (Let's leave discussion about this one away for now)
    A+: Starmie, Zapdos, Alakazam
    A-: Rhydon, Lapras, Slowbro
    B: Cloyster, Victreebel, Jolteon
    C+ (Questionable 1Us, but still there imo): Jynx, Gengar
    C- (Usable in 1U but either not good enough to quite cut or very very borderline 1U): Persian, Golem, Dragonite

    Verdict on the non-big 9s:

    [​IMG]

    As marco says, some players have been trying to push Cloyster up and I'm one of the "noisiest" ones in that subject. The first thing we should make clear is: Hyper Beam sucks. Forget this move, using it makes Cloyster a bad Lapras. Its only use is KO'ing Chansey, it's not like you are bringing Starmie down to HB range anyway. On the other hand, Rest, the superior option, gives you a much better matchup vs Reflect Snorlax and allows you to take on Reflect Chansey much better . And unless you are playing Mister Tim, your opponent will most likely have one of these. Paralysis also becomes less (take caution, paralysis is still awful for Cloyster) of an issue with Rest. Metagame evolution has proven to be very beneficial for Cloyster and it definitely has a spot in the good (but not great) mons of 1U. Cloyster for B, without any single doubt.


    [​IMG]

    The biggest strength of Victreebel is the fact that it can put pressure on all paralyzed leads to the point that, unless you are unlucky, your opponent is forced to let something take sleep. Wrap is a great asset that Exeggutor does not have access to, and if you make use of it as a way to keep momentum, you can slowly chip at that Alakazam and force it out, eventually forcing your opponent to let something else take sleep. Victreebel is also a very good option for dedicated Wrap teams because of the utility it provides (Stun Spore + Wrap is also a cool combo). I personally don't like the Swords Dance set as much as the Wrap set (sorry Disaster Area !) because it involves winning too many mindgames to work for my taste, but no one can deny that it can be really dangerous. Overall a really underrated Pokemon. The Idiot Ninja maybe you can also add to this?

    [​IMG]

    Jolteon is not useless. I generally only like to see it in the lead spot in very agressive teams (like Wrap teams). Jolteon as a lead is really awkward because you really want to keep it out of paralysis, so if you lead with it and you see an Alakazam the best course of action is probably switching out and use Chansey as a sleep blocker. At least you beat the most common backup sleep inducer (Lapras) so not all is lost if your opponent bombs Exeggutor on Chansey to clear the way for Lapras. Jolteon is also cute as a filler since it's not weak to Ice unlike Zappy and can also do some very nasty stuff but generally Zapdos is better. It also naturally outspeeds Tauros which is fun. I think everyone agrees that Zapdos is better and no one argues that Jolteon is a great Pokemon but I definitely think it has its place in 1U.


    [​IMG]

    Jynx... it's amazing what coming from the ladder to tournaments can do to a person. When I was a "pure" ladderer I used to love Jynx, it was my favourite lead. Nowadays my opinion is that all it does is luck based. You need to be lucky to hit the Lovely Kiss (and do you really want to put an Alakazam asleep when one of the best ways to deal with Reflect Snorlax is coming in with Exeggutor on it and force it out with the threat of sleep?) and you need to be lucky to freeze the Chansey with Blizzards before it dies / Rests / whatever. Rest on Jynx is a funny thing, and that's probably the reason my opinion on it changed. I mean, any decent player will exploit a Jynx trying to wake up to hell and back and the ladder doesn't really accompish that.
    TL;DR: Jynx struggles to accomplish something else than putting something asleep and possibly freezing Chansey and when you have mons such as Starmie (<3) and Alakazam that can accomplish so much more I find it hard to use Jynx in my lead spot.

    [​IMG]

    Gengar should not be used in the lead spot, as marco said, it is not a reliable Jynx anti lead (Alakazam does it better, specially if your Eggy has DEdge). However, its properties should not be ignored in the filler slot. It's not a bad backup sleeper at all, you can catch booms with it, you screw up Wrap completely, Snorlax without EQ struggles and you can boom something (specially in boom teams that use BoltBeam Chansey and Tauros as win conditions, Gengar is very useful). However yeah, it really sucks apart from this. No STAB, two awful weaknesses and 0 defence really hurt it, which means it usually blows up rather quickly. The boom mindgames it causes are fun though.

    [​IMG]

    Enough has been said about Golem in the last month. I agree with the crowd that says Rhydon is better. I honestly am not sure if Golem should stay in 1U or not. I mean, I still use it in some very specific circumstances (pairing with Slowbro comes to mind) but I really really doubt that's enough to warrant it a place in 1U. Heck, I used Persian more than Golem in 1U lately.


    [​IMG]

    Persian is scary. But things need to go your way because it's dead weight until it comes to clean up (no defensive utility). The only reason I dont' deem it 2U yet is because it has access to Screech and I didn't test that option enough yet, which means it can work its way around paralysis through the speed drop reapply glitch (it's too hard to keep it out of paralysis so that gives you an option vs paralyzed stuff like Alakazam and to a lesser extent Starmie). I really doubt that makes it 1U material though, so I'll just slot it here for now, with a really "blurry" interrogation mark.

    [​IMG]

    This thing doesn't belong in 1U. The only reason it can put in work is because some players switch around while trying to exhaust Wrap's PP instead of waiting for Wrap to miss with a mon that can threaten it, which seems to me to be the superior option. I honestly don't remember the last time Dragonite KO'd more than one mon vs me and the times it KO'd one were rare. Heck, even in Wrap teams I think it's the most droppable Wrap user - at least Cloyster and Vic provide utility for the team. If you want a sweeper, pick something that can actually sweep and doesn't depend on luck to achieve something.

    About 2P/2U:

    First of all, in my opinion, only Golem should drop. I am also not entirely opposed to Jynx and specially Gengar dropping, although I think both should stay in 1U. If this drop happens, we need to rework on 2U an understand how these drops impact the metagame. Gengar is faster than Tentacruel, unlike Haunter, and has access to a really strong Thunderbolt, for instance, so if it drops, there's a very interesting check to Cruel there.

    However, what I preach for is that only Golem is dropped. And I really doubt Golem comes to help with the Tentacruel problem so either we ban Wrap (which is my favourite option) or Tentacruel needs to go to 2P. Too overcentralizing. However, I don't agree with the birds ban. Omastar is a good Pokemon in 2U and can fill a variety of roles, even outside checking the birds, and can counter both of them really well. Vaporeon is not a bad check to both either. Golem comes to help with Moltres too, although a burn is not fun at all. Dugtrio threatens both too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  3. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    Hyper Beam doesn't suck and it can KO Starmie, but Rest definitely helps more.

    I'm pretty positive that Victreebel is not underrated - we know it can work in OU because of the low speed of 3/4S and the SD set is known too. SDers in general can be scary if they draw a FP on that TWave turn and things like that.

    Wrap teams are weak to Psychic and Jolteon is really awful against Alakazam lead (making it bad for a Wrap team, and I learned that at my own expense). It can be useful if you succeed in switching Chansey into turn 1 TWave without getting predicted, or you can force Starmie out making a good deal out of it.
    I still think it's a lead, just too frail for a 6th slot.

    Screech won't help a para'd Persian. It will suck anyway.

    Notably, this isn't the place to discuss single pokemon again, which I just listed under spoiler. It's a proposal so you either make some use out of it (directly or after modifying) for RBY Mondays or things like that, or you leave it at that.
    The current state of 2U might be discussed, but the will to pick this up is strictly a yes or no.
     
  4. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja Member

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    my opinions on the single mons:

    cloy and vic are way too good in 1U to be allowed below. the fact that you take 50/50 mindgames and turn them into 85/15 wrap hits (or 70/30 clamp hits, but it's naturally a bit worse with clamp) is stupid powerful, more consistent than many of the perceived "safe" mons, they both brutalize sleeping snorlax which is quite a common sight, and they both have punishes for the mons that would come in to prevent the snorlax brutalizing. I do think cloyster is slightly better, but I also think Razor Leaf is an insanely powerful and underrated move when people consider Victreebel as a whole. People seriously underrate how menacing a Victreebel with just Sleep Powder + Razor Leaf + (any normal move to threaten Alakazam) is in the early game, and they underrate how much cleanup it can do in the non-Zapdos matchups. Cloy, general consensus says he should be 1U so I don't feel like I need to elaborate as much.

    Jynx is good enough to deserve 1U. I feel like most of its losses come from people being careless and not shaping teams around her, but if you do take your time to build Jynx-specific builds and tweak all the moves accordingly she's a fine mon. Not a stellar SPL showing but I think she's fine in 1U.

    Jolteon is good and deserves more usage. Underrated and I feel like most of the people who want it in 2U are pushing for it just because in their meta prediction it would make 2U a better tier, not because it deserves to be there on its own individual power level. Keep 1U.

    Gengar to C I've already argued for in VR thread, extremely shaky and niche check to EQ-less Snorlaxes and nothing else. Good enough for me to give him repeated shots in SPL games, but also an extreme niche pick and gamble. Easy C material, possibly 2U.

    Golem is bad. 2U

    Persian I tried and honestly as much as I want to justify him over other lasts I struggle to do so. 2U.

    Dnite I need to play more with it before expressing judgement but from what I've seen I think he could deserve 1U. Need to playtest some more for sure.

    no opinion on how 2U should be structured because I haven't played a single game of it, have fun trying to accomplish whatever your goal is in this thread
     
    Nails likes this.
  5. marcoasd

    marcoasd Host Emeritus

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    I'm leaving it here because it might be helpful for people who actually asked and are in the position to make an use.
    I learned the game, competed, won, passed down.
    It might sound arrogant, but being arrogant is fair if you completed the whole "chain" and you see lol-attempts of punking - you may figure your position by yourself. Neutral luck, actually.
     

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