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RBY 15/15/15/15 DVs are impossible (in most cases)

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by Disaster Area, May 25, 2016.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Original thread on Smogon: Gen 1 - 15/15/15/15 DVs are impossible (in most cases) | Smogon Forums

    My reaction:
    So, what do we do about this, and does anyone want to do some digging? I'd keep an eye on the thread on Smogon too
     
  2. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    I'll c/p what I said on smogon

    So yeah, a lot of work needs to be done to understand the specific details of what this entails, but once we've worked everything out this will probably prove to be a big deal. Also as mentioned, not sure about fishing, I looked for the encounter rate when fishing and all I found was some gamefaqs article saying it's 33% (except for old rod, which I think is irrelevant because Magikarp doesn't require a random encounter to be obtained) buuuuut I have no idea how reliable it is, I'd say it's probably not reliable lol

    edit: I had a look at that link I posted, and it turns out that contrary to what the op says, you can obtain graveler at a decent encounter rate (25) ... the big issue is that it's at lvl 55 (unknown dungeon), which bears moveset implications (though I'm not sure if they're competitively relevant). Best you can do for Haunt/Gast is 20.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
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  3. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    So, if that list is accurate for 25's:

    15/15/14/15 - Highest IV spread (loss of 4 HP)
    15/15/15/7 - Highest IV spread with maximum Special IVs
    15/3/14/15 - Highest IV spread with minimum Attack IVs (loss of 4 HP)

    Here's every change in KOs I could find for 15/15/14/15 Golem from what I've checked so far:

    Snorlax Surf vs. Golem: 306-360 (85.2 - 100.2%) -- 2.6% chance to OHKO (was 2HKO)
    Tauros Earthquake vs. Golem: 120-142 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (was '100%', could fail to 3HKO with constant min rolls)
    Exeggutor Psychic vs. Golem: 165-195 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 54.8% chance to 2HKO (was 25.9%)
    Alakazam Psychic vs. Golem: 176-207 (49 - 57.6%) -- 96.8% chance to 2HKO (was 77.8%)
    Zapdos Drill Peck vs. Golem: 34-40 (9.4 - 11.1%) -- possible 9HKO (was 10HKO)
    Slowbro Psychic vs. Golem: 122-144 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (was '100%', also has a tiny chance to KO with max roll > Spec drop > max roll)
    Lapras Blizzard vs. Golem: 405-476 (112.8 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (was 92.3%)
    Jynx Blizzard vs. Golem: 405-476 (112.8 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (was 92.3%)
    Gengar Psychic vs. Golem: 113-133 (31.4 - 37%) -- 81% chance to 3HKO (was 49%)
    Jolteon Double Kick (2 hits) vs. Golem: 60-72 (16.7 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO (was possible 6HKO)
    Cloyster Blizzard vs. Golem: 342-402 (95.2 - 111.9%) -- 71.8% chance to OHKO (was 48.7%)
    Hypno Psychic vs. Golem: 156-184 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO (was 3HKO)
    Victreebel (non-crit) Razor Leaf vs. Golem: 350-412 (97.4 - 114.7%) -- 84.6% chance to OHKO (was 61.5%)
    Sandslash Earthquake vs. Golem: 180-212 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (was 99.5%)
    +2 Sandslash Earthquake vs. Golem: 362-426 (100.8 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (was 97.4%)
    Moltres Fire Blast vs. Golem: 109-129 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 41.6% chance to 3HKO (was 14.3%)
    Articuno Ice Beam vs. Golem: 352-414 (98 - 115.3%) -- 87.2% chance to OHKO (was 66.7%)
    Dugtrio Earthquake vs. Golem: 158-186 (44 - 51.8%) -- 10.8% chance to 2HKO (was 5.4%)
    Pinsir Submission vs. Golem: 114-134 (31.7 - 37.3%) -- 87.7% chance to 3HKO (was 77.7%)


    Probably the biggest changes are Lapras and Jynx (and +2 Sandslash) not dropping KOs due to low rolls, Alakazam much more reliably 2HKOing, Cloyster having a roughly 7/10 chance instead of 1/2 to OHKO, and being quite a bit more likely to be 3HKO'd by Moltres' Fire Blast. Also, Zapdos and Jolteon can KO one turn early if they get very very lucky with back to back max rolls. Golem can go 15/15/15/7 to keep that extra bit of bulk, but this comes at the cost of being outsped by other Golems and Rhydon as well. If an encounter rate of 30 can get 15/15/15/15, this could help Rhydon close the distance after the Body Slam mechanics correction (EDIT: It definitely can if in-game trades can be 15/15/15/15 - trade Golduck for Rhydon in Pokemon Yellow at Cinnabar Island). This does not factor IV limitations for anything but Golem.

    This will certainly be interesting to see how this affects different Pokemon. If I understood correctly, Pokemon obtained by non-wild encounters can still have 15/15/15/15, so at the very least Jynx and Lapras will appreciate the reliable OHKOs. Moltres also benefits from having a slightly better chance to blast through Golem.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
  4. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    This should be a list of 'safe' 15/15/15/15 mons, as they probably won't be affected by this as they are obtainable through in-game trades, gifts (including Amnesia Psyduck), Celadon Game Corner prizes, fixed encounters, event giveaways or as a starter.

    -(?) is event mons, my guess is they'd be fully randomized.
    -*JPN can only be obtained from Pokemon Blue (JPN), which cannot trade with English roms. This would mean those Pokemon are only 'safe' via in-game trades in Pokemon Blue (JPN) and cannot be used in English RBY, where Blizzard has a 10% freeze chance instead of 30%
    -(pokemon) are 'safe' Pokemon through evolving the obtainable 'safe' pre-evolution.



    Abra (Kadabra, Alakazam)
    Aerodactyl
    Articuno
    Bulbasaur (Ivysaur, Venusaur)
    Charmander (Charmeleon, Charizard)
    Clefairy (Clefable)
    Dratini (Dragonair, Dragonite)
    Dugtrio
    Eevee (Flareon, Jolteon, Vaporeon)
    Electrode
    Farfetch'd
    Fearow(?) *JPN
    Golem *JPN
    Gengar *JPN
    Hitmonchan
    Hitmonlee
    Horsea (Seadra)
    Jynx
    Kangaskhan *JPN
    Krabby *JPN (Kingler *JPN)
    Lapras
    Lickitung
    Machamp
    Mew(?)
    Mewtwo
    Moltres
    Mr. Mime
    Muk
    Nidoran-F (Nidorina, Nidoqueen)
    Nidoran-M (Nidorino, Nidoking)
    Omanyte (Omastar)
    Parasect
    Pikachu (Raichu)
    Pinsir
    Poliwag *JPN (Poliwhirl *JPN, Poliwrath *JPN)
    Porygon
    Psyduck (Golduck)
    Rapidash(?) *JPN
    Rhydon
    Scyther
    Seel (Dewgong)
    Slowpoke *JPN (Slowbro *JPN)
    Snorlax
    Squirtle (Wartortle, Blastoise)
    Tangela
    Tauros *JPN
    Vuplix (Ninetales)
    Wigglytuff
    Zapdos
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
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  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I just had a thought

    can you obtain perfect DV Pokémon from Stadium?

    -

    Also it turns out you can still obtain perfect DV Pokémon via mew glitch.

    So perfect DV Pokémon are obtainable without outside interference [i.e. using in-game glitches only]. So it would be a bit like using the Pomeg Glitch in ADV LC
     
  6. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Would we consider using glitches legal though? I mean, you can use glitches to obtain things like Surf Dodrio, Spore Electrode, etc.
     
  7. Ortheore

    Ortheore Leader

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    Uh Enigami, that list was atk/def/spd/spc, so 15/15/15/7 is actually the best DV spread that maximises speed, not special, which is just something that seemed to be recurring throughout your post

    I just realised in my response to this that it's inconsistent with the approach to min-atk mons. I stopped looking into it when I heard of a glitch that facilitated this, but I think that was the wrong thing to do for the reasons I mentioned earlier
     
  8. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Oh, misread... That changes things quite a bit, the 15/15/14/15 spread only reduces Speed by 2 and HP by 4. This means Golem's bulk would be barely affected while still outspeeding Rhydon, with 15/15/15/7 a bad spread that only benefits Golem in dittos. However, speed being affected could be very important for Pokemon such as Tauros if the 30 encounter rate has a similar optimum spread, having to choose between better overall stats or outspeeding Pokemon in the same speed tier using the slower spread.
     
  9. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    RBY never fails to surprise.
     
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  10. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Moderator

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    I posted this on Smogon, but I'll repost it here as well: I think it's easy enough to allow perfect Pokemon through any number of rationalizations you want. Here's my favorite, so let's just go with this: you can catch or breed them in GSC and trade them back with any DV distribution. Think about what the tradebacks meta means for a second, in real, practical terms: no tradebacks means Pokemon who obtain moves exclusively in GSC cannot use those moves in RBY. If you and I got together with a link cable and Red and Blue cartridges, and I said "no tradebacks," you would with 100% certainty understand that I'm talking about move distribution, and that I'm *not* saying that if you trained up and hatched Pokemon in GSC to get the best stats for the battle that you can't use those Pokemon in the match. So ... so what's the issue, right? I mean, whenever we use a Jynx not nicknamed Lola or a Mr. Mime not nicknamed Marcel, we technically would have had to catch it wild or breed it in GSC and trade it back to RBY (because in pure RBY cartridges, those Pokemon are only available via trade with NPCs who locked in those nicknames). So when you think about it, we're already playing in a simulated environment where perfect DVs are possible, because "no tradebacks" only refers to move distribution, NOT to where the Pokemon you're battling was obtained. The Jynx I use as a lead in a given match was traded back from GSC because it's not nicknamed Lola. The Gengar I use as a lead in a given match was traded back from GSC and that's why it has perfect DVs. Easy.
     
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    As far as I understnad it there's some set of limitations in GSC as well. Would be interested in hearing what your other possibilities are. I think due to complexity this won't end up being implemented in any particular way but it is relevant to the case of obtaining pokemon with perfect DVs in-game should people wish to do that
     
  12. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    However you want to look at it, that is still tradebacks in RBY. While the tradition may be more tied to moves which I won't deny, I strongly disagree with deviating from the philosophical basis of "if it can't be obtained in Generation 1 without glitch abuse, it shouldn't be allowed in Generation 1".

    I do also think that all Mr. Mimes should be named Marcel, and all Jynxes named Lola.

    I also think the baseline of "simulate in-battle glitches but don't allow out-of-battle glitches as legitimate means of obtaining Pokemon" is something which is both possible to implement, and as true to the games as possible.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    I see the draw in that, but some Pokémon are obtainable from stadium I gather? So whatever can legally be obtained with perfect DVs from stadium without using tradebacks (in a moves context, amnesia golduck is a great example) can be used in RBY, in the same way anything from XD can be used in ADV 1U.

    The other thing is complexity of implementation and the ability to complete the dataset. If we can obtain a complete dataset then I don't see why we shouldn't implement it so long as we're sure we've absolutely not missed anything.
     
  14. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    Actually obtaining the dataset shouldn't be particularly difficult. There is an RBY disassembly and if nobody else wants to tackle it, I guess I may be able to.

    You could theoretically simulate all possible RNG combinations in a loop and then just record the results. I haven't had a look at it but that would be basically the brute force approach for a worst-case scenario.

    I don't think all that many Pokemon are available via Stadium. Maybe just Psyduck?
     
  15. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    ok

    what about pokemon obtainable from stadium?

    (I assume pokemon are obtainable from stadium; I've never played on cartridge before generation 3 so I might be saying very stupid things)
     
  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Also, just allowing glitched Pokémon (w.r.t. DVs) is an easy workaround to the problem. It involves adapting the philosophy but if it can be done risk-free without damaging the game then I don't see the issue. Our philosophy could be adapted to allowing glitches that only affect DVs/IVs/EVs rather than movesets/base stats + have the rule that Pokémon must appear in the pokedex or something along those lines. I don't know how to word it exactly but I guess saying:
    You can only use moves you could obtain without the use of glitches on a Pokémon through English R/B/Y/Stadium, you can obtain stat adjustments (DV/EV only) through the use of glitches however. And then purist RBY can also coexist with the limitations that not allowing glitching for DVs cause.

    -

    In an ideal world we'd also replicate the PRNG function to in-battle probabilities...
     
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  17. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    As soon as you adapt an ideology to allow for glitches, you are breaking a barrier which can be so easily preserved.

    As far as I'm concerned Stadium is every bit as legitimate a part of Generation 1 as RBY, so the argument that glitches are somehow comparable to Stadium is completely lost on me.
     
  18. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    This is where most people are going to disagree with you. "No tradebacks" is the preservation of the exact metagame which existed on cartridge prior to the release of Gold and Silver. Logically, things which require GSC tradebacks were not a part of that metagame, therefore they will never be a part of the "no tradebacks" metagame from now until the end of time, full stop.

    Just like you may not use Pokemon from FireRed, LeafGreen, or Emerald in the RS200 metagame, which is the preservation of the exact metagame which existed on Ruby and Sapphire cartridge prior to the release of FireRed and LeafGreen.
     
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  19. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Moderator

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    I find that almost impossible to believe. Say it's 2001 and you and I are getting together to have a tournament in RBY. We both have the full Pokemon ecosystem available - all carts, Stadium 1 and 2, transfer paks, game link cables, multiple game boys, the works. If I say "no tradebacks," there is no doubt at all I'm talking about move legality. BUT if you popped your Snorlax over to Gold for a second because you had an extra Rest TM there and it's easier than resetting one of your cartridges and playing through to get a fresh one, you would do it. If you wanted a Jynx not named Lola, you'd catch one in Silver and pop it back. If you had a level 100 Eggy with great stats already but you wanted to give it Sleep Powder and its current moveset doesn't have it, you'd bring it to Stadium 2 to use the move relearner there. You would do all of those things and then pop the Pokemon back into your copy of Blue and battle me and neither of us would think anything of it.

    In ANY case, the ultimate point I was making in my original post is there are tons of ways to rationalize how we could allow perfect Pokemon now, even after this discovery. My proposed way was to officially define "No Tradebacks" as specifically an issue of Pokemon/move legality and that's it. All other rules of typical RBY stand (no glitch Pokemon, no impossible movesets), the generally understood meaning of No Tradebacks stands (no new Pokemon or moves/move combinations), but it allows for Pokemon to be bred or caught in GSC and traded back, and the ONLY thing that would affect would officially allow any DV combination (and nicknameless Jynx/Mr. Mime) ... which, again, is the meta we technically play right now. I feel that's the easiest/least stressful way to rationalize it (if you hate the "You can Ditto Glitch them in RBY" rationalization), because in real, practical terms, that is exactly how RBY was played after GSC came out, even with the "No Tradebacks" rule.
     
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  20. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Moderator

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    Bred Pokemon get their DVs from their opposite gendered parent or Ditto in GSC, so if you can get a perfect Ditto then it's moot.
     
  21. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Moderator

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    Yes, you can get almost all of the gift Pokemon - Bulbasaur, Charmander, Squirtle, Eevee, Hitmonlee and chan, um ... Omanyte and Kabuto. I think that's it.
     
  22. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Starters, Eevee, Hitmons, Omanyte/Kabuto and Amnesia Psyduck were all the obtainable Stadium Pokemon. Of those, the only 'encountered' Pokemon is Psyduck.

    The only reason I can think to ignore these changes is because of either unfeasibility or laziness. The only issues I see are possibly memory use with storing all the possible DVs for each encounter rate and difficulty figuring out the proper valid DVs on Showdown (got an idea for this though). Going by the "25'ers" alone, they suffer either a drop in 2 Speed or 16 Special, both of which are very significant. At the very least, a DV Clause should be added to explain that illegal DVs are allowed, though if it is possible to implement I'd really prefer we strive for cartridge accuracy.

    I'm setting up a little program to create a list of all possible DV variations by encounter rate so we can see how all Pokemon are affected, with any luck I'll have some results for everyone soon.
     
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  23. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    One way of thinking about it which I think Crystal_ said well in the thread on Smogon is that we can just as easily consider the faults of the DV distribution to also be a glitch.

    I'd say the only difference between the incomplete DV availability glitch and the perfect DV glitch is one takes some sort of will to execute.

    Also I'd like to note that on cartridge you can't even enforce this rule outside of mutual trust. It's unlike bringing an illegal move or pokemon because you can't tell if your opponent is cheating at least without playing 1000s of games.

    We already break pure RBY by our implementations of sleep and freeze clause. There's no reason we can't break pure RBY again in special circumstances. This is a special circumstance.
     
  24. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Why is this a special circumstance? Sleep Clause is a special circumstance due to the overpowering centralization of sleep without it, and is a clause Nintendo officially recognizes and used within Stadium. Freeze clause is a special circumstance due to the potential of being able to win a game purely through luck, and is a clause Nintendo officially recognizes and used within Stadium. Dig/Fly Clause is a special circumstance due to potentially breaking the game because of a glitch that prevents the opponent from being able to affect the user in any way. This is not overpowered and does not break or otherwise negatively affect the game in any major way.

    Gonna copy some of my post over on the Smogon thread:
    I feel that any use of glitches or GSC to obtain Pokemon are only valid, again, only as long as they match up to obtainable RBY Pokemon. Which they do not when they have stats they could not have had in RBY.
     
  25. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Moderator

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    This is a really important point: I don't know if anyone has ever stopped and said out loud "RBY is 'RBY as it was before GSC.'" They've said "RBY is 'RBY without allowing for new move/Pokemon combinations from GSC,'" absolutely. But as I've explained above, when GSC came out people used them to catch and train Pokemon and trade them back to RBY. It's still possible today - I have the entire ecosystem in my living room right now so this isn't archaic or theoretical. You made up a definition just now - "RBY as it was before GSC" - but that's not written down anywhere. What I'm saying is, right here and now, let's officially define RBY as "RBY without allowing for new move/Pokemon combinations from GSC." That's the point that actually matters, and that's really the understanding a lot of us have had from the beginning, and it still allows for using RBY as part of the real, legal, actual ecosystem of the time period - RBY, GSC, Stadium 1 and 2, N64s, Game Boys, and Transfer Paks. Getting a perfect DV Gengar and trading it back to RBY and using it, so long as that Gengar doesn't know Ice Punch, is and always has been 100% compatible with playing legal RBY. So if there's confusion about the issue, let's just "officially" define it that way and we can wash our hands of the issue entirely.
     
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  26. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Good question. It's a special circumstance because it would lead to a change in the rules, and what we currently play is completely possible on cartridge without the use of external cheating devices. Hence what we're doing here is discerning between glitches and mechanics, and deciding what ones we should allow. For example I can argue that both the mechanic that allows perfect DVs and the mechanic that means you can't get perfect DVs through wild encounters are glitches. Desyncing effects could be viewed as either mechanics or glitches. Because of their game-breaking nature we consider them a glitch and code them out. A means in-game to get perfect DVs could be considered either a mechanic or a glitch. I say there's no reason you couldn't argue that they are a mechanic. On the other hand with glitch pokemon that don't break the game, or with the use of glitch pokemon to get normally illegal moves on Pokémon... well that could equally be a mechanic too. It doesn't require external devices nessecarily, so it could be legal. All this is, is a matter of drawing a line. I propose we draw the line after allowing perfect DVs, as does Golden Gyarados, the two of you (Enigami and RBYer) propose drawing a line before allowing perfect DVs. Neither side is completely right or completely wrong on this, it's down to a matter of opinion, which at some later date we should vote upon. Whether it would have any impact whatsoever on simulators is another matter, so take it up with the simulators themselves rather than on here if you want to change things. On here a vote would only effectively be a poll of our views as a community.
     
  27. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    Enigami has represented my position really well, so all I can do is emphasize that I was always under the impression that the philosophical basis of tradebacks was all about "RBY as it was before GSC". Even just going by the language used: "tradeback". There is no ambiguity there.

    It stinks of dishonesty to pretend that other Pokemon-strengthening features of GSC wouldn't also be banned if they were discovered when the original clause was created, so if you really want "tradebacks when I feel it is fine", then don't say you are implementing a tradeback ban. You are implementing a tradeback moves-only ban.
     
  28. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Moderator

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    It doesn't stink of dishonesty. It's dishonesty to YOUR interpretation, which is YOUR interpretation. But if MY interpretation was that tradeback is a "moves only" ban, then this is 100% consistent. Whatever you assumed may be different from what I assumed, but your "impression" does not mean that's the way it is. So I'm saying, we stop assuming and let's put it in writing.

    You're acting like you've caught me in a trap by saying I'm "implementing a tradeback moves-only ban" as if that's somehow less pure or illogical. But what I'm saying is "Uh, duh. Yes. Let's define tradebacks as a moves-only ban, absolutely." It's not "tradebacks when I feel it's fine." It's simply defining what tradebacks means in a competitive context for our metagame according to what we all assumed tradebacks meant back when the term was first created. And like I said, I was around back in 2000 when these games came out and I can tell you 100% that we hatched Pokemon from GSC and traded them to RBY and as long as they didn't have illegal moves, it was still RBY. Tradebacks did not philosophically mean "RBY as it was before" when the term was created, it literally just did mean "no new move combos." So my assumption/impression is based on actual practice. Now, you can say "you didn't know the stat distributions might have been illegal, but if you had known you wouldn't have allowed it," and I can say that that's a question that can never be answered definitely. But like I said above, after GSC came out, the whole collection - R/B/Y/St/G/S/C/St2 were treated as a singular ecosystem, so I would bet that even if we knew the stat distros weren't possible when catching wild in Blue, it wouldn't be an issue to hatch them in Gold to get the best stats possible. But again, that's my guess only.

    Bottom line - you can't tell me my interpretation is dishonest, because it's no more dishonest than yours. But what we can do is make a decision about how we want to play going forward. If we want to continue to play with perfect stats in RBY, my interpretation allows that to occur without glitching and while respecting the spirit and practice of the ecosystem as it existed in its prime. So that seems pretty straightforward to me.
     
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  29. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Moderator

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    And just for fun, I dug up a hilarious thread from TPM, where I was first active in the Pokemon online community in the early 2000s:

    [RBY] Discussion: NYPC moves

    Ignore the hilarious "Should NYPC moves be allowed in RBY" question and just pay attention to HOW they refer to tradebacks in general. They almost ALWAYS pair it with the word "moves." They say "tradebacked moves." It was only after time and the need for brevity that we eventually shortened this to "tradebacks."

    So, when I say that the concept of tradebacks was specifically referring to moves, I would point to discussions like this to show that philosophically, that's all that matter when we banned them. Because we banned "tradebacked moves" even if we eventually shortened it to "tradebacks."

    If you say you were under the impression that tradebacks philosophically refers to "RBY as it was before GSC" and I'm saying I'm under the impression tradebacks just means tradeback MOVES are disallowed, I have actual evidence on my side, and you just have a gut feeling.

    EDIT: And on Smogon's Tradebacks article: Tradebacks - Smogon University
    "With these new Pokemon games came the ability for Pokemon that exist in the RBY generation to learn moves in Gold/Silver/Crystal which exist in the RBY generation but are not learnable by those specific Pokemon in the RBY generation. These techniques on these Pokemon are called "tradebacks."" [Emphasis mine]

    Look, the point I'm making is that philosophically, the concept of tradebacks has historically referred to the moves. I have conceded above that there is clearly some confusion and divergent interpretations, but that's why I'm saying just once and for all put in writing that despite this new discovery, yes, "tradebacks" refers to the moves only, and then we can be done with the whole thing.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
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  30. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    Seriously, just take a step back and ask yourself: why were tradeback moves banned?

    You can play the subjective card all you want, but you very well know why they were banned.

    And of course they were focused on the moves, because the moves are all anyone knew about. However, the spirit was "whatever happens in GSC stays in GSC", and no matter how much you try to rationalize against that spirit to create your artificial "tradebacks when I feel like metagame", you end up having to go back in time to rewrite history.

    And the ecosystem argument is particularly bad because the tradeback ban was intended to preserve the 1st generation-only ecosystem without interference.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  31. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Moderator

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    That is absolutely and simply not true and ignores so many of the posts and points I've made already. I *did* take a step back, especially in earlier posts, to illustrate how the tradeback ban was designed specifically for moves only. The full Gen 1 + 2 ecosystem was used to take advantage of Stadium 2's move re-learner and hatching Pokemon you needed more of, like Charmanders or Snorlaxes, or just catch a Jynx not named Lola. All of those things were perfectly acceptable because they took advantage of the ecosystem to get ideal Pokemon, while preserving a tradebacked moves ban to keep new moves out of the game. Like I said, we didn't know about the stat distros, but we can only guess if we would have considered that a problem, there's no way to know now. But what I do know is that the tradeback ban was to prevent moves and only moves, not to prevent using the ecosystem, because we DID use the ecosystem to hatch and use the move re-learner. The spirit of the rule was about the moves, not access to the ecosystem to catch and train the best Pokemon for the job. My argument stands.
     
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  32. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    You are missing the point. The Gen 2 ecosystem was just used as a way to replicate things that were already obtainable in Gen 1 via normal means.

    There was zero!!! precedent of the tradeback concept being a moves-only concept. The entirety of the GSC interference at the time was assumed to be moves, because that is all that we knew about.

    You can link to posts from a long time ago which only mention moves because guess what - moves are all people knew about! But why did the tradeback moves bother them? Not because they were moves, but because they were unobtainable outside of the Gen 1 ecosystem. I don't know who you are trying to fool with your argumentation but if we are going on precedent for something without a hard precedent in practice, we need to ask why something existed for the hard precedents that were in practice, and figure out what they were all about. That is the only way to apply a precedent.

    If you want to go create your own rules because there was no hard, established precedent, that is up to you, but the philosophical basis under the hard precedent can easily be applied as a soft precedent in this case.

    And the Lola thing is a complete red herring because it has no mechanical significance.
     
  33. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Moderator

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    Here is my argument, and the ONLY argument I am trying to make, and none of it contradicts anything so after this point I'm not going to hop back in to defend/re-explain/etc:

    1) When the concept of tradebacks was created, it only referred to moves. Using the Gen 1+2 ecosystem was acceptable for other reasons.

    2) We did not know that the Pokemon we bred in Gen 2 might have stats that were not obtainable in Gen 1.

    3) We, today, cannot say for certain how we would have reacted if we knew about the stat distribution back then.

    4) What we can do, right now, is take the concept of "Tradebacks" and define what it means - does it mean any element of GSC not obtainable in RBY, ie, stat distributions, or does it just mean moves? And by this I mean we have a choice. There is no one right or wrong answer. We have to decide.

    5) If we define "Tradebacks" as "Tradeback Moves" it allows us to continue playing the way we have played for years, which is convenient and easy. It also presents no conflict with history or tradition (the converse presents no conflict with history or tradition either, but it's a point to make in either case).

    6) Because of this, I think we should define "Tradebacks" as "Tradeback Moves." That is my vote - and nothing more.
     
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  34. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    The way I see it, there are two sides. The "we prioritize history and tradition" side, and "we prioritize a simply defined, accurate and consistent philosophy" side. Ultimately, they are just different values, which is subjective. I admit, I am repelled by the idea of a piecemeal philosophy more than almost anyone alive, so I don't expect others to share my concern, at least with the intensity that I do. And also I feel the new mechanical discoveries sever any direct link we had with tradition, which is why I feel now is the perfect time to clarify things to base philosophical principles.
     
  35. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Well we tend to prioritise the latter with a nod to the former, but it doesn't mean the end result from the latter will be the same since we don't nessecarily share your philosophy. Smogon probably nods more towards the first than we do.
     
  36. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Disaster Area obviously the "we already break RBY with freeze clause" thing will get zero traction with those of us against freeze clause.
     
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  37. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    I'm with you there. Mechanically inaccurate clause enforcement is a big pet peeve of mine. I'd much rather battle without it.

    That is why I like Stadium mechanics, plus Stadium is just overall less glitchy and better, except for those who think that the Hyper Beam glitch is cool. Working Fly/Dig, Focus Energy that works, nerfed Wrap and Sleep, more even Critical Hits, Substitutes that block status, it's all good stuff to me.

    You can even hide the previews and HP numbers when battling in person to give more of a cartridgey feel.

    However, I don't expect anyone to jump on that ship so I don't bring it up;)
     
  38. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Would just like to note in case you're not aware you're in a small minority here. We did have a vote on freeze clause and the result was massively in favour of keeping freeze clause and not testing what happens if we remove it.

    Counter mechanics are even cooler
     
  39. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    Wow, not even testing huh? That is harsh.
    I especially like the desync in link battles. Supremely cool.
     
  40. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    It's what people voted for overwhelmingly.

    The Counter desync is avoidable. That being said the psywave desync isn't, but it only happens 1/256 of the time when it hits..
     
  41. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    Yeah it is. I've always wondered though: if you can trigger a desync, couldn't that count as a draw? I don't know of any situations in which it would be that easy to trigger one, but it could be a sort of creative loss avoidance.
     
  42. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Fur and Power Member

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    Yea interesting to bring up. I'm not happy with how simulators handle desyncs tbh
     
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  43. Lorvid

    Lorvid Member

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    I'm actually very curious as to what team you could build in an in-game glitchless tourney. I wonder how these DV discoveries would affect the meta. Trying to get a decent Chansey, Tauros, and Exeggutor could take a while. Even if you did, they wouldn't have the stats that they do in the simulator, so I wonder how much that would change up the meta. What team would you build and which DV spreads would you use for the mons effected by only being catchable in wild encounters?
     
  44. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Well, if someone were so inclined, they could after some effort (though likely considerably less than playing the RNG game) use ACE glitches to create any Pokemon with the desired legal DVs, and it'd be impossible to tell whether they cheated to get perfect DVs or spent a long long time trying to get them.

    Certain Pokemon can afford substandard DVs, while others really prefer having it all. Some S rank examples:
    -Tauros can still be very effective with just max Attack + Speed, though a Special stat of 7 or above is good to retain a reliable Blizzard 2HKO on Rhydon.
    -Snorlax pretty much needs everything. Max Attack for damage, max Defense and Special for bulk, and max speed to avoid moving last against opposing Snorlax and Slowbro.
    -Chansey really only needs max HP (odd Atk/Def/Spc/Spe) + max Defense DVs, as she can simply run Seismic Toss for damage with a low Spc stat and still be a very functional Special wall. 11+ Speed DVs is recommended though to ensure Golem can't move first.
    -Exeggutor needs mostly everything like Snorlax - Attack for Explosion, Defense for Rhydon, Special for Psychic's power + absorbing Psychics that it can't really recover from, and atleast 11 Speed to ensure Chansey can't move first.
     
  45. Lorvid

    Lorvid Member

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    It may be worth trying to shoot for them then. I may see if I can find the DV tables and shoot for some of these spreads. I was starting to think that I may have to go without them. Can ACE be used on a 3DS VC version of RBY?
     

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